piec Granpal firmy polimet

[serse]

Some pictures with the installation, maybe you see something...

[arbus3]

Mam pytanko do miłośników owsa, czy mocno "zarastają" wam płomieniówki? u mnie po tygodniu od czyszczenia znów są pokryte puchem z sadzy, co na pewno obniża jego sprawność. Może podzielicie się swoimi doświadczeniami na jakie ustawienia zwrócić uwagę aby zredukować zarastanie sadzami? Palę owsem już 3 sezon i jedyne co mi przeszkadza to nadmierne sadze.
P.S.
Jeśli chodzi o pomoc Polimetu to w moim przypadku zawsze kontaktowałem się z AK i nigdy się nie zawiodłem.

[electrician]

W jakim trybie palisz - zapalarką, czy podtrzymaniem żaru? Oraz - czy to jest czarna sadza, czy też biały osad? Jeśli czarna sadza - to za mało powietrza, jeśli biały osad - to za duża moc dmuchawy i wydmuchuje popiół do wymiennika. Jeśli palisz metodą podtrzymania i sadza jest czarna - to może to też być za mała ustawiona moc nadmuchu lub/i za krótkie przerwy między uruchomieniami i/lub za duże dawki podtrzymujące. Ja kiedy paliłem owsem z czyszczeniem nie miałem problemów - raz na miesiąc tak circa about
Pzdr.

[arbus3]

Palę w podtrzymaniu, muszę zwiększyć powietrze aktualnie mam dla 100%- 32 i co 3 mniej dla niższych zakresów, wiem że masz starszy model bez krzywej, ale jak u Ciebie wyglądało ustawienie dmuchawy? Sadza jest czarna, przy tej temp. zewnętrznej nie przechodzi w podtrzymanie więc zaczynam testy podczas pracy (w podtrzymanie też zajrzę)

[stanisław.k]

Przy paleniu owsem miałem dmuchawę od 24(20%) do 42(100%)

[arbus3]

Przy paleniu owsem miałem dmuchawę od 24(20%) do 42(100%)

Ok, podwyższyłem, a jakie miałeś podawanie w trybie serwisowym na 100%, z tego co pamiętam fabrycznie jest 7,5 dla silnika 90W. Miałem awarię silnika i Pan Andrzej wymienił mi na 180W i podawanie dałem na 3,7 (kocioł 30kW)

[stanisław.k]

5.5s ale mam 15kW

[electrician]

@serse
Sorry, but I have older version of Granpal and I can't help You in Your problem

[electrician]

Ok, podwyższyłem, a jakie miałeś podawanie w trybie serwisowym na 100%, z tego co pamiętam fabrycznie jest 7,5 dla silnika 90W. Miałem awarię silnika i Pan Andrzej wymienił mi na 180W i podawanie dałem na 3,7 (kocioł 30kW)

Jeśli kocioł nie przchodzi Ci w tryb podtrzymania, to ewidentnie jest za mało powietrza. Nie znam tego nowszego sterownika, więc gotowych podpowiedzi Ci nie udzielę, ale zasada jest jedna niezależnie od sterownika - czarna sadza - więcej tlenu
Pzdr

[serse]

@electrician, thanks anyway.
At least concerning the common things please let me know:
-the room regulator (regulator pokojowy) how does it work with the boiler? When the set temperature is reached, the regulator stops the boiler, or not ? (it is slowing it down, or stops it)
-the three way mixer is supposed to open when heating water reaches a certain temperature? Where can I set the temperature or anything else related to this three way mixer in the menu?
Thanks.

[patol]

Może mi ktoś powiedzieć do czego służą parametry "obniżenie" i "przesunięcie"?
Mam problem z ustawieniami przy wysokich mrozach bo piec mi za słabo grzeje... przy temperaturach w +/-0*C wszystko jest OK i piecyk wraz z regulatorem pokojowym działają jak trzeba.

[telewy]

@electrician, thanks anyway.
At least concerning the common things please let me know:
-the room regulator (regulator pokojowy) how does it work with the boiler? When the set temperature is reached, the regulator stops the boiler, or not ? (it is slowing it down, or stops it)
-the three way mixer is supposed to open when heating water reaches a certain temperature? Where can I set the temperature or anything else related to this three way mixer in the menu?
Thanks.

Hi serse,

I will try to help you but I am only casual user of Granpal boiler. I have read your story and just wonder if you had red any Granpal manual? Using this boiler is quite easy but you have followed some rules described in manual. Anyway I will try to answer your question so hopefully you will get rid of your problems. I have some problems with English names for some pieces of heating systems so I will try to describe them in my words to have common understanding what we are talking about.

The first think boiler can work in 2 different modes:
1. one mode is when fire is always kept in boiler. During this mode when boiler is not working (not heating hose) every 30 min boiler out small amount of pellets and make for short time (20-30s) wind just to keep cinder
2. the second mode is one when boiler is not working it is switch off and when it starts to heat house first it use fire igniter to start fire pellet. I don’t use this mode so I don’t know much about it. But I know there are some relations between boiler temperature and exhaust temperature, I thin exhaust temperature must be below boiler temperature. Solution for your problem might be just to open upper door of boiler (the one which covers spirals). But most of the guys on forum do not recommend using this mode, preferable is the first one and when you have to start up boiler you do it manually with some lightwood (think you use when you want to fire your grill).
In my installation I have no floor heating only heaters on the walls, I don’t use weather sensor, I use room sensor, I have 4 way mixer, my installation is pretty simple. I use manual mode of boiler. For further I will use following abbreviations
CO – for heating house installation
CW – for water system installation (water you use for washing)
-the room regulator (regulator pokojowy) how does it work with the boiler? When the set temperature is reached, the regulator stops the boiler, or not ? (it is slowing it down, or stops it)
Answer is No, room regulator doesn’t stop boiler. It sends signal to close mixer. Depending on your parameters setup in boiler driver there are few possibilities:
1. in general CO pomp is working always even when temperature in room is higher then on your room regulator. This pomp is switch off only in one case when parameter in menu decline temperature is equal 40 degree. BTW, I am writing this from my work and have no access at the moment to English menu of granpal, I will check proper names today on evening. I other cases CO pomp is always working.
2. Depending on decline temperature set up in boiler menu, boiler keeps different temperatures in CO installation when room regulator is off. The rule is if decline temperature is lower than CO temperature is higher. Actual CO temperature you can always check on granpal menu. CO temperature also depends on parameter “KRZYWA” CURVE??? This parameters is usually set as 0.8 or 1.0 or 1.2. Maximum value is 1.6. If it is higher the
3. CO temp is also higher. I thing when you use weather sensor it changes value of this CURVE parameter depending on outside temperature.
4. In my case boiler is keeping always high temperature, the one set up in menu “KOCIOL” BOILER???, I have it set to 67 degree. There are some hysteresis so in reality my boiler temp is kept between something like 57 and 77. There are also parameter you can extend these values. It means that in my case boiler is always hot. And when room regulator is on boiler gets signal to put hot water in CO installation. When room regulator is on water which is push into CO installation has higher temperature, something like 60 degree or higher. I don’t know how it works in case of floor heating system, as definitely you have to keep temperature in installation quite low.
As I said when I am at my home I will look at my boiler English menu I will try to add some more accurate examples.
To be honest I have no idea about your explosions. To let you know one of our colleagues described on forum similar case but it happened when boiler was hot and there power was switched off. Also I don’t have any smoke in my boiler at all, if you have smoke in hopper something is wrong. Very important thing is to have proper pressure of air in your chimney and proper thrust??? (thing that makes that smoke goes upper in chimney).
Please feel free ask questions, step by step I hope we solve your problems.

Regards, tomek

[serse]

Hi Tomek,

Thanks for your long and useful reply. I have the English version of the manual and to be honest I find it really hard to follow and I think that it is much shorter than the Polish one, so I am assuming it contains less information. I red it anyway.
On the other hand, I don't know very much about boilers and installations.
First, I want to say that yesterday I removed the control panel's cover to check the connections there and I seemed to see some wires which were not very tight in place, anyway I have tighten them up and after that I put everything in place again. Then I started the boiler and surprise, the igniter worked!

About the room regulator. The under floor heating has its own automation, which controls the actuators for each heating circuit - on the first floor I have 8 circuits and 5 room regulators which control 5 different zones. (1 for bathroom, 1 for living, 1 for the kitchen, 1 for the entry hall and 1 for the bedroom).
When the set temperature is reached on any of the room regulators, the automation is closing the actuator(s) for the corresponding zone, so the circuit(s) of that zone are closed. Most of the time, the circuits close all at the same time, and open all at the same time, because I set the temperature 22 degrees on all 5 room regulators.
Now, when all circuits are closed, the automation does not stop the boiler, but the boiler grows its temperature really fast up to 72 ˚C and it stops.
So, after one day the house entered in some kind of "thermic balance" so, the boiler is working for 30-40 minutes and then stops and it stays for ~2 hours until it reaches 58 ˚C and so on. In this aspect I am pretty happy with it, because the pellet consumption is very small.
The curve is now set on 0.6, because I see that this is the middle curve for under floor heating (0.4 - 0.8 ).
What does "Shift" refers to? What is it for?
The last question (cause it is late now) I understand that when mixer is opening, it should be "01" on the display, but it is always 00. What could be the reason? I will ask some more questions tomorrow. Thank you.

[telewy]

Serse,

Sounds well, looks that your boiler works fine.
Boiler works exactly as you describe, it doesn’t stop when room regulator temperatue is reached. It keeps internal temperature according to parameters set in estyma (if boiler temperature is set to 65 estyma stops heating boiler at 65+10=75 and starts heating when temperature goes down to 65-10=55.

>>What does "Shift" refers to? What is it for?
To be honest I don't use this parameter but this parameter it is for changing of temperature of CO. In manual there is picture showing curve for curve=1.2 and shift equal 0 and +/-10.



This picture on horizontal axis has outdoor temperature but in case when there is not outdoor sensor 0 degree must be assumed for outdoor temperature. So simply adding some values to SHIFT you raise temperature for CO according to curve on this picture.
The last question (cause it is late now) I understand that when mixer is opening, it should be "01" on the display, but it is always 00. What could be the reason?
Yes, you are right. When mixer is opening display shows 01, when it’s closing display shows 00. When mixer stops 01 or 00 disappears.

Cheers, Tomek

[serse]

OK, I 've done it again! It exploded again today!
Because I have a lot of tarry all over the boiler, I stopped it after 1 month. I have burned exactly 25 bags of pellets, which is not bad for an entire month, I guess...
Because the 3 way mixer does not work as it should, I stopped the boiler to clean it up, because I have a lot of tarry because it condensates, because the return temperature is 35-36 degrees, when boiler has ~70 degrees. Meanwhile, I made the chimney higher with 50 cm, because I suspected it doesn't draw well.
Now, it is much better, I tested it and it is a clear difference.
Anyway, after I cleaned the boiler, I also cleaned the spirals from the heat exchanger. I removed the spirals and I didn't used them until now, because last time when I used them, when I turned on the boiler, after 2-3 minutes of ignition I had a little explosion and the interior chimney just got out of place. After I removed the spirals, the boiler started without problems.
Today, after I saw that the chimney draws better than before, I decided to put the spirals back into place. Well, after 3-4 minutes after ignition started, I had a big explosion. The upper door got out of place, the locker is broken and the door hit the wall and deteriorated the automation from under floor heating, which is quite close. I was lucky I wasn't near the boiler at the time.
I know it is the gas from the pellets, but why it explodes? Why it does not go out the chimney?
So I am asking you please help me understand what could be the problem. Is it something about ignition time, amount of air (fan power) maybe? What settings do you have for ignition? I appreciate any kind of ideas.
Thank you.

[electrician]

Tomek, nie możemy tak zostawiać naszego Kolegi Rumuna na pastwę losu! Ja nie bardzo mogę Mu pomóc, bo u mnie działa stary sterownik i nie bardzo wiem jakie algorytmy zabudowane ma ten nowy. Nie wiem np czy ma możliwość przestawienia na działanie tak, jak stary - t.j. działanie w podtrzymaniu ze stałym korytarzem temperaturowym oraz wybór sposobu palenia bez zapalarki. Najprościej - z tego co widzę z opisu Serse - byłoby rozpalenie kotła za pomocą podpałki i wyłączenie działania zapalarki, czyli praca w podtrzymaniu. Z Jego opisu wynika, że dmuchawa nie radzi sobie z usunięciem gazów powstałych wskutek podgrzania peletu /pewnie mocno żywiczny i wytwarza dużą ilość gazów w suchej destylacji, a komin nie ma odpowiedniego ciągu żeby dmuchawa je "wydmuchała"/ i w momencie pojawienia się płomienia następuje wybuch. Miałem podobnie przy paleniu owsem i rozpalaniu zapalarką - tyle, że było to w skali mikro w stosunku do opisu Serse. Przeanalizuj, proszę, moje uwagi i w przypadku możliwości pracy w podtrzymaniu i wyłączenia możliwości użycia zapalarki - zasugeruj Serse takie rozwiązanie /radzisz sobie jak widzę z językiem /
Pzdr

[telewy]

Electrican, dobrze że o tym piszesz. W weekend byłem zalatany ale myślałem co mu odpisać, bo nie widziałem przyczyny tych jego wybuchów. Postaram się coś sklecić na podstawie Twojego postu. Ja mu zasugeruję pracę tak jak ja mam czyli podtrzymanie. Nie do końca jarzę "działanie w podtrzymaniu ze stałym korytarzem temperaturowym oraz wybór sposobu palenia bez zapalarki" więc nie chcę mieszać.

Pozdr, tomek

[electrician]

Głównie chodzi o to, czy ten nowy sterownik ma możliwość emulowania sterownika starego, t.j. ustawienia na pracę w podtrzymaniu przy zadanej temperaturze /dla obecnych warunków 60 - 65 st. C/ i zadanej histerezie - wg mnie najodpowiedniejsza jest 4 - 5 st.C oraz wyłączonej możliwości używania zapalarki. Wtedy raz ustawiony kocioł pracuje w kanale temperaturowym np. 61 - 69 st.C, nie ma wygaszeń ani rozpalania, gdyż kocioł pracuje w trybie podtrzymania żaru /regulowanej przerwy między podawaniem porcji paliwa, regulowanej czasowo porcji paliwa oraz ustawionymi czasami wybiegu dmuchawy oraz siły nadmuchu/. Po pierwszym podpaleniu peletu podpałką /ja używam tej płynnej, do grila/ nie ma podgrzewania bezpłomieniowego peletu i nie ma gromadzenia się gazów. U mnie praktycznie raz podpalony kocioł pracuje aż do końca sezonu bez wygaszania. Ponieważ nie wiem, czy ten nowy sterownik umożliwia takie działanie - nie bardzo mogę sam pomóc Serse. Stąd moja do Ciebie prośba. Tym bardziej że widzę, że język Szekspira nie jest Ci całkiem obcy .
Pzdr

[telewy]

Serse,

Sorry that I took so long but I had not enough knowledge to write something valuable to you. Fortunately some other guys from forum helped me to write answer.
It looks that problem with Explosion is that you use ignition and during ignition process boiler produces lots of gas which explodes when first fire appears. It might be a problem that pressure of air in your chimney is not enough to get of rid gases from boiler. Also it might be cause by pellet quality. Solution for it is very simple, you have to turn boiler to not use automatic inflame. After boiler starts fire then it keeps fire and not use ignition at all. This mode is called „supportive mode” (I don’t know proper translation for it). Most of time boiler is still and after time set in Estyma controller it feeds fuel and switch on fan for while. Then again it goes still. When you go to boiler menu, under position BURNER you will find following parameters:
a. Burner power 20%
b. Fuel fuel 2
c. Fan at light 20
d. S-by still[min] 30
e. S-by feel[sec] 10
f. S-by fan[sec] 20
These parameters are taken from my granpal 15kw but in your case you should start with s-by still=20. Be sure to have fuel parameter set to fuel2 which is pellet. In general me and lots of folks from forum don’t use ignition at all. When I need fire boiler I use staff that usually I use to fire grill. Usually I need to do that only few times per year, usually when I clean my boiler. And don’t worry, when your boiler works in „supportive mode” it doesn’t consume much pellet.

I think this should solve your problem with explosion.

Best regards, tomasz

[electrician]

Jak to mawiał imć pan Onufry - sam bym tego lepiej nie wywiódł Drobną wątpliwość moją budzi tylko to ustawienie paliwa na "fuel 2", bo jak sam piszesz takie ustawienie to pelet. Nie wiem, jak w tym nowym sterowniku, ale u mnie "paliwo 2" nie wyłącza zapalarki, wyłącza ją "paliwo 3".
Aha, i ja do czyszczenia nie gaszę kotła
Pzdr